Took a little bit of liberty in reviewing the demo and doing a separate run with the same team composition. I'd like to put my two cents onto this.
Nevermind demo had a different file name for some reason???
Demo: https://testing.potato.tf/demos/mvm_mann...842574.zip
Quick note to the demo if you do check it yourself; we sucked cause of last minute arrangement (and we were tired lol)
GENERAL
- WaitForAllDead is heavily used on almost every subwave, causing some of them to just slog out and rip out some of the missions pacing into just exactly that.
- Map is very unfun to play around on, especially with bot compositions from the waves, on top of inconsistent difficulty and "accidental" moments from bots (primarily refererring to wave 5 Samurai subwave)
- TLDR; Bots are heavily spammed in swarms to force a push due to the immense payout the mission gives; ultimately making most waves same-y, if not a repetitive broken record at times. Would more or less recommend to concentrate the power of bots instead of forcing high maxactives and potential chances of it feeling more spammy than it is.
W1
- Wave suffers from a lot of the ultra generous usage of WaitForAllDead. Everything turns into a massive halt once you include the fact that both giants and mainwave commons barely ever attempt to push players. Starting cash can overall triviliase it even more.
- First subwave has very little push overall. The buff on the soldiers in conjunction with the bots are poorly executed due to how easy it is to avoid them in general.
- Second subwave overall would only "push" because players can outright ignore the tank until the administrator announces that it's almost to the hatch, thus the inconsistent "push". Either path can make this subwave easy or easier (left path due to aoe damage spam, whether it being the bots are behind or in front of the tank.)
Additionally, Engineer being ran with $1200 can easily get rid of the tank without anyone really noticing it was there in the first place to begin with.
W2
- Main pushforce of the first sub may only stem from the occasional pyros and the Rapids. Bowmen only exist as mere fodder for on the sub as a whole.
- The ubers didn't seem to do much even when they were popped. On top of the supporting robots also not doing as much with the GBurst + med combo. On the shorter end in terms of wavelength with 4 people.
W3
- See the General note. Ultimately a sluggish wave with turtle pacing.
- Nitpick but first subwave is basically an inferior variant to the last subwave; only with bots that push harder and are supported better. Would consider revising the first subwave in one way or another.
W4
- This is where commons begin and might be too over-relied. Engineer can more or less deal with them fairly efficiently (or any aoe class tbh). The alarming rate of 12 potential commons being out (not counting giants or mission support) at once will be annoying to fight.
- FaN scouts typically don't bring anything to the table pushing power wise, and they're almost fodder at times or at best a nuisance to displace you for a brief moment.
W5
- Major nitpick on the knights/samurai subwave is that: Samurais can accidentally take shortcuts due to them autojumping and even charging in the opposite side of the bomb path; ultimately shortening the path and forcing bomb alarms super early if anyone is unfortunate enough to have that happen to them.
- Final subwave with Giant Medics on Mannworks is a very hit or miss thing due to the drop point from either bot spawn side. They will detach and straggle/struggle to keep up with their patient.
- Reoccurring theme -- with much like Wave 4, the final subwave tries very hard to hit the max bot cap (a potential of 16 support commons on the field during the final subwave, once again NOT including giants or mission support). Wave as a whole needs a massive revision in what it offers as it is also.
As for other parts of the wave; Tanks are paper, can be heavily disregarded until the announcer voice line kicks in (and it will basically die within a blink of an eye by that time).
W6
- I feel like I'm repeating myself here with the massive bot swarms that the final subwaves are reliant on (despite being heavily countered by a sentry gun and/or any aoe type of damage).
Also another nitpick but, the fire subwave was already previously used elsewhere, but only to a bit of a more threatening degree.
W7
- Tanks (while paper, still aids with the inclusion of: ), Giants + Giants with Giant Medic pairs. I don't think I would need to elaborate on that any further as to why this is very unfun for both inexperienced and experienced players alike. Ultimately screams "use uber/crit canteens now"
- If players fail to meet the dps check and get pushed to hatch, giants can stack on either tank behind them. So the second you kill the tanks you get jumpscared by 2 stacks of giants all at once to fight against.
Nevermind demo had a different file name for some reason???
Demo: https://testing.potato.tf/demos/mvm_mann...842574.zip
Quick note to the demo if you do check it yourself; we sucked cause of last minute arrangement (and we were tired lol)
GENERAL
- WaitForAllDead is heavily used on almost every subwave, causing some of them to just slog out and rip out some of the missions pacing into just exactly that.
- Map is very unfun to play around on, especially with bot compositions from the waves, on top of inconsistent difficulty and "accidental" moments from bots (primarily refererring to wave 5 Samurai subwave)
- TLDR; Bots are heavily spammed in swarms to force a push due to the immense payout the mission gives; ultimately making most waves same-y, if not a repetitive broken record at times. Would more or less recommend to concentrate the power of bots instead of forcing high maxactives and potential chances of it feeling more spammy than it is.
W1
- Wave suffers from a lot of the ultra generous usage of WaitForAllDead. Everything turns into a massive halt once you include the fact that both giants and mainwave commons barely ever attempt to push players. Starting cash can overall triviliase it even more.
- First subwave has very little push overall. The buff on the soldiers in conjunction with the bots are poorly executed due to how easy it is to avoid them in general.
- Second subwave overall would only "push" because players can outright ignore the tank until the administrator announces that it's almost to the hatch, thus the inconsistent "push". Either path can make this subwave easy or easier (left path due to aoe damage spam, whether it being the bots are behind or in front of the tank.)
Additionally, Engineer being ran with $1200 can easily get rid of the tank without anyone really noticing it was there in the first place to begin with.
W2
- Main pushforce of the first sub may only stem from the occasional pyros and the Rapids. Bowmen only exist as mere fodder for on the sub as a whole.
- The ubers didn't seem to do much even when they were popped. On top of the supporting robots also not doing as much with the GBurst + med combo. On the shorter end in terms of wavelength with 4 people.
W3
- See the General note. Ultimately a sluggish wave with turtle pacing.
- Nitpick but first subwave is basically an inferior variant to the last subwave; only with bots that push harder and are supported better. Would consider revising the first subwave in one way or another.
W4
- This is where commons begin and might be too over-relied. Engineer can more or less deal with them fairly efficiently (or any aoe class tbh). The alarming rate of 12 potential commons being out (not counting giants or mission support) at once will be annoying to fight.
- FaN scouts typically don't bring anything to the table pushing power wise, and they're almost fodder at times or at best a nuisance to displace you for a brief moment.
W5
- Major nitpick on the knights/samurai subwave is that: Samurais can accidentally take shortcuts due to them autojumping and even charging in the opposite side of the bomb path; ultimately shortening the path and forcing bomb alarms super early if anyone is unfortunate enough to have that happen to them.
- Final subwave with Giant Medics on Mannworks is a very hit or miss thing due to the drop point from either bot spawn side. They will detach and straggle/struggle to keep up with their patient.
- Reoccurring theme -- with much like Wave 4, the final subwave tries very hard to hit the max bot cap (a potential of 16 support commons on the field during the final subwave, once again NOT including giants or mission support). Wave as a whole needs a massive revision in what it offers as it is also.
As for other parts of the wave; Tanks are paper, can be heavily disregarded until the announcer voice line kicks in (and it will basically die within a blink of an eye by that time).
W6
- I feel like I'm repeating myself here with the massive bot swarms that the final subwaves are reliant on (despite being heavily countered by a sentry gun and/or any aoe type of damage).
Also another nitpick but, the fire subwave was already previously used elsewhere, but only to a bit of a more threatening degree.
W7
- Tanks (while paper, still aids with the inclusion of: ), Giants + Giants with Giant Medic pairs. I don't think I would need to elaborate on that any further as to why this is very unfun for both inexperienced and experienced players alike. Ultimately screams "use uber/crit canteens now"
- If players fail to meet the dps check and get pushed to hatch, giants can stack on either tank behind them. So the second you kill the tanks you get jumpscared by 2 stacks of giants all at once to fight against.
![[Image: yjlNbE5.jpeg]](https://i.imgur.com/yjlNbE5.jpeg)